Comments on: The Problem with Free College Tuition (College Wars Part I) http://greyswan.net/2007/06/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/ A mostly unpredictable weblog Fri, 31 Jul 2009 01:22:12 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: This is it http://greyswan.net/2007/06/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-99 This is it Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:45:46 +0000 http://www.greyswan.net/2007/06/09/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/#comment-99 You can at least partly blame the Supreme Court and Congress for the college “arms race.” Federal law greatly restricts the ability of employers to give IQ-style aptitude tests to job applicants. Many employers therefore hire only people with college degrees, even for jobs with no real need for degrees, because they figure that having a degree means that an applicant (probably) is not a complete babbling idiot. No. IQ test answers would be judged similarly to certificate credentials. People can still cheat at IQ tests, still study the types of questions to familiarize themselves with answers, and still fake their way to the top. People would feel more certain that one was better than the other, numbers would show it, but there is a lot of chance in those numbers. If anything IQ tests would be worse because they measure book learning and pattern seeking instead of critical thinking and communication skills. I believe that because of the different range of jobs and skills needed for those jobs the best way is to have a good manager who has the skills the job needs and to have them intuitively pick out the best person. Of course people are idiots who like pretty and high status people so picking a manager itself would be an art. You can at least partly blame the Supreme Court and Congress for the college “arms race.” Federal law greatly restricts the ability of employers to give IQ-style aptitude tests to job applicants. Many employers therefore hire only people with college degrees, even for jobs with no real need for degrees, because they figure that having a degree means that an applicant (probably) is not a complete babbling idiot.

No. IQ test answers would be judged similarly to certificate credentials. People can still cheat at IQ tests, still study the types of questions to familiarize themselves with answers, and still fake their way to the top. People would feel more certain that one was better than the other, numbers would show it, but there is a lot of chance in those numbers. If anything IQ tests would be worse because they measure book learning and pattern seeking instead of critical thinking and communication skills. I believe that because of the different range of jobs and skills needed for those jobs the best way is to have a good manager who has the skills the job needs and to have them intuitively pick out the best person. Of course people are idiots who like pretty and high status people so picking a manager itself would be an art.

]]> By: SFG http://greyswan.net/2007/06/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-71 SFG Thu, 21 Jun 2007 16:25:55 +0000 http://www.greyswan.net/2007/06/09/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/#comment-71 I agree. Middle-class jobs can by and large be done with a high school education. But it's politically good to say you're expanding access to opportunities by sending everyone to college, when all you're doing is feeding the zero-sum competition you describe. There's no way to turn back the clock (say, by removing federal funds for education) without screwing the first generation to be denied full access to 'college'. I agree. Middle-class jobs can by and large be done with a high school education. But it’s politically good to say you’re expanding access to opportunities by sending everyone to college, when all you’re doing is feeding the zero-sum competition you describe. There’s no way to turn back the clock (say, by removing federal funds for education) without screwing the first generation to be denied full access to ‘college’.

]]> By: Citizen Carrie http://greyswan.net/2007/06/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-70 Citizen Carrie Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:40:52 +0000 http://www.greyswan.net/2007/06/09/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/#comment-70 Hi Gray Swan. Just found your website in a most circuitous way. I'm not sure if I'm your target audience, but here goes. I totally agree with you about the value of a college education. I was actually part of the first generation in my family to attend college, so it was very important for me to get my degree. I learned a lot at college, but it was the socialization skills I gained that were of the most value to me, rather than actual academic knowledge. I used to advocate that every child should have a chance to go to college, but not anymore. I've seen it where first a college degree gave you an advantage in the workforce, then an MBA degree was required to get ahead. Now nothing seems to matter anymore, except, if you have a college degree, maybe your e-mailed resume won't be automatically routed to the recycle bin. Most careers do not require 4-year degrees. Most of us could do quite well with maybe an associate's degree and a really good mentoring program. From what I see in the work force, there are a bunch of well-educated morons running around like crazy. I don't think that our country having a higher number of college graduates has helped the overall quality of the workforce. If even more people attended college, it would just mean more precious resources would be spent for ever decreasing returns. Hi Gray Swan. Just found your website in a most circuitous way. I’m not sure if I’m your target audience, but here goes.

I totally agree with you about the value of a college education. I was actually part of the first generation in my family to attend college, so it was very important for me to get my degree. I learned a lot at college, but it was the socialization skills I gained that were of the most value to me, rather than actual academic knowledge.

I used to advocate that every child should have a chance to go to college, but not anymore. I’ve seen it where first a college degree gave you an advantage in the workforce, then an MBA degree was required to get ahead. Now nothing seems to matter anymore, except, if you have a college degree, maybe your e-mailed resume won’t be automatically routed to the recycle bin.

Most careers do not require 4-year degrees. Most of us could do quite well with maybe an associate’s degree and a really good mentoring program. From what I see in the work force, there are a bunch of well-educated morons running around like crazy. I don’t think that our country having a higher number of college graduates has helped the overall quality of the workforce. If even more people attended college, it would just mean more precious resources would be spent for ever decreasing returns.

]]> By: David http://greyswan.net/2007/06/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-69 David Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:47:15 +0000 http://www.greyswan.net/2007/06/09/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/#comment-69 Honestly, a straight-up quota system (where you had to normalize candidate scores by the z-score difference between their race's average and the majority's average) would be less harmful than the current system. At least then you'd be able to enforce standards for most of the population when hiring, and people wouldn't have to engage in ever-increasing races for credentials. Unfortunately, I don't see Griggs v. Duke Power (the case in the SC you're implicitly referring to) going away anytime soon, particularly given that the percentage of the population that benefits from the 'diversity' status quo is increasing yearly. Honestly, a straight-up quota system (where you had to normalize candidate scores by the z-score difference between their race’s average and the majority’s average) would be less harmful than the current system. At least then you’d be able to enforce standards for most of the population when hiring, and people wouldn’t have to engage in ever-increasing races for credentials. Unfortunately, I don’t see Griggs v. Duke Power (the case in the SC you’re implicitly referring to) going away anytime soon, particularly given that the percentage of the population that benefits from the ‘diversity’ status quo is increasing yearly.

]]> By: Peter http://greyswan.net/2007/06/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/comment-page-1/#comment-68 Peter Sat, 09 Jun 2007 18:14:24 +0000 http://www.greyswan.net/2007/06/09/the-problem-with-free-college-tuition-college-wars-part-i/#comment-68 You can at least partly blame the Supreme Court and Congress for the college "arms race." Federal law greatly restricts the ability of employers to give IQ-style aptitude tests to job applicants. Many employers therefore hire only people with college degrees, even for jobs with no real need for degrees, because they figure that having a degree means that an applicant (probably) is not a complete babbling idiot. You can at least partly blame the Supreme Court and Congress for the college “arms race.” Federal law greatly restricts the ability of employers to give IQ-style aptitude tests to job applicants. Many employers therefore hire only people with college degrees, even for jobs with no real need for degrees, because they figure that having a degree means that an applicant (probably) is not a complete babbling idiot.

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